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Limbo to be decommissioned...

BREAKING NEWS
Souls are up in arms today at the proposed plans to shut-down and decommission Limbo - the halfway house between Heaven and Hell and home to millions of unbaptised infant souls. Pickets have spread like wildfire and additional Seraphim have arrived at The Pearly Gates to help Saint Peter keep order and stop the protestors that have gathered there.

One soul, who wished to remain nameless, has claimed "Pope Benedict XVI is just doing this to boost his popularity ratings abroad. He knows that the Church is loosing ground in Africa and Asia to Islam because the Islamic Faith says that stillborns - like me - go straight to paradise! Grieving parents prefer to believe that their dead little ones are in a nice place but what they don't realise is that Limbo is actually pretty good! It might not have that much of a nightlife and the beach front could be better but atleast you're hanging out with everyone who's a similiar age to you!"

------------------

A couple fo really interesting articles on the Catholic Churches proposed move to disband Limbo...

Vatican To Review State of Limbo (BBC News Online; Friday 6th October 2006)

How Can Limbo Be Demolished? (BBC News Online; Friday 6th October 2006)

Comments

( 21 comments — Leave a comment )
ant_girl
Oct. 6th, 2006 02:06 pm (UTC)
Just goes to show how ludicrous the whole thing is (IMHO).
mrmmarc
Oct. 6th, 2006 07:23 pm (UTC)
The WHOLE thing?
O RLY?

:)
ant_girl
Oct. 6th, 2006 07:28 pm (UTC)
Sorry. ;-)

It's just that reading that article, I very much got the feeling that they're all making it up as they go along.
(Deleted comment)
ant_girl
Oct. 6th, 2006 02:37 pm (UTC)
So few people get there

That's cause it's an imaginary place!

Terrible,terrible,terrible, me.
mrwarfrog
Oct. 6th, 2006 02:11 pm (UTC)
Now you see, this is where the church shoots itself in the foot. I mean, if limbo doesn't exist then who told them it existed in the first place. If the pope, as is generally stated, is the communication channel for God to his people on Earth, then when did God suddenly change his mind?

I have the same problem with the election of a Pope. How can you have an election when, everyone is praying to God in order to gain guidence? If God is telling them who should be Pope, how the hell can they have a ballot, as God would be telling them all the same name?
dan_g
Oct. 6th, 2006 03:06 pm (UTC)
Ah yes... But is it not the case that God is infallable and therefore unable to make mistakes?

Therefore if he changed his mind does that not imply that he/she/it was in error? or at least seriously misunderstood...

More importantly, does this mean that the Pope is now re-enacting the plot of Dogma?

This must be one of those existential dilemma's that people keep going on about?
mr_rakshasa
Oct. 6th, 2006 03:18 pm (UTC)
I think it was Pius IX that first really leaned on the wee loopholes in doctrine that would allow him to say he was infallible (they existed to break the power of the consular movement in the 11th Century). He did it mostly because he was gutted about losing the Papal States.
In all honesty, it would probably have worked out better for Catholicism if they hadn't lost the strength of the Councils. But saying that won't help them. I guess it all depends on when they first adopted Limbo into their doctrine.
angusabranson
Oct. 6th, 2006 04:26 pm (UTC)
From the first BBC article I linked too:
---
According to the BBC's Religion and Ethics site, the church held that before the 13th Century, all unbaptised people, including new born babies who died, would go to hell. This was because original sin - the punishment that God inflicted on humanity because of Adam and Eve's disobedience - had not been cleansed by baptism.

This idea however was criticised by Peter Abelard, a French scholastic philosophiser, who said that babies who had no personal sin didn't even deserve punishment.

It was Abelard who introduced the idea of limbo. The word comes from the Latin "limbus", meaning the edge. This would be a state of existence where unbaptised babies, and those unfortunate enough to have been born before Jesus, would not experience pain but neither would they experience the Beatific Vision of God.
------
mrmmarc
Oct. 6th, 2006 07:54 pm (UTC)
St. Augustus was the one who said unbaptised babies go to hell.

Git.

No, seriously. A git.

Augustus was such a twonk. He was the one who gaves us the "limbus infantium" (as opposed to previously debated "limbus patrum")


mr_rakshasa
Oct. 9th, 2006 11:20 am (UTC)
Augustine. Augustine of Hippo. One of the worst things to ever happen to the Church, and hit out with some seriously screwed-up stuff. Also, was probably rife with Gnosticism of some variety or another.
mr_rakshasa
Oct. 9th, 2006 11:19 am (UTC)
You know, I keep forgetting Abelard did anything besides inspire 19th Century poets and artists, and having an exciting personality for a mediaeval theologian without being either insane or evil.
mrmmarc
Oct. 6th, 2006 07:57 pm (UTC)
God never changes his mind.
WE however are crap at getting what God is after.
We argue, we bicker, we place ego and opinion and pride, and neurosis and expediency and political dmentality and everything else as filters.
SO ya get people arguing.
ALL the time.

Christianity is not sop much blind faith- as the greatest bickering and argument and CONSTANT discussion of the last 2000 years.
Dogmatics stand there and go 'These are the answers- there is no debate'. The majourity fo Christians just argue over things like this a LOT.

Its great.
mrmmarc
Oct. 6th, 2006 07:48 pm (UTC)
Limbo- originated as the result of a huge argument. It was somewhat of a fudge/compromise. And the move by the Pope was somewhat a clarification on something no one had seriously utilised in years (in fact the move was startd under JPII but when you are having a 600 year debate, FAST doesn;t enter into it).
The idea start with a basic question- do good people who die go to heaven? "Of course they do" it was said. "Those not Christian can't" said others. A-ha- said the first camp... what about Moses? He was a HUGE believer in God, and a great dude- but was he Christian? Nope. Therefore by your logic he can't go to heaven.
And then from out of someones butt came limbo- where you WAIT to be let into the nice and clean Christian heaven (the whole non-baptised Baby aspect was added afterwards).
Put simply- Heaven is where the soul joins in union with God- not a place, but a process. One with god- YAY! One with the universe/joy/bliss/numinous yadda yadda. Hell is NEVER joining with God/oblivion/torment of isolation yadda yadda. Limbo (a term which never appears in the Bible) is the bit inbetween. Not the numinous of being one with all things/God that is heaven and NOT the eternal torment of isolation from the universe and perpetual solitide of the soul that is oblivion... a halfway point. A bit like Mornington Cresent.
But now the fudge is gone. Benedict HATED the thoelogica fudges and he is in the process of wiping them out.
(For the record- this now brings the Roman Catholic church in line with all other Christian chruches who have NEVER supported the concept of Limbo- and see it as it is- a rather weird 14th century concept).
The Pope as communication channel of God? Er... since when? He is the elected head of the church, spokesman of the CHURCH not of God. God does not speak to Popes. Has not spokes to Popes in ages.
Now there is the doctrine of Papal Infallability which is a right old crock- hoisted upon the church by an incorate number of Cardinals at the turn of the century, but that is a theological debate not one of divine revelation.
Hence the vote- based upon the proposition of gnosis- or indivdual wisdom. If God was involved, he would do a huge national lottery moment and we'd have this huge finger pointing and a voice saying 'It's you'. But he doesn't. Which means?
Which means its down to faith. It means ya don't get easy answers and easy solutions- not that he ever promised easy answers and easy solutions. Ever. Its down to FAITH not proof. God don't reveal himself like that. You can't have faith unless you have doubt. Without that doubt, without the struggle, then there is no faith, only submission. So it doesn't work like that...
It is simply trying your best, hoping you did right and praying for guidence (translated: hoping that you have the strength to face up to making the wrong decision if you get it wrong).
Don't confuse the rather complex Catholic doctrines (the ones based on 2000 years of constant debate) with the dogmatic doctrines (those based on 25 minutes thought while watching TV).
:)
madwitch
Oct. 6th, 2006 03:47 pm (UTC)
"Father Brian Harrison, a theologian, told the BBC News website that while limbo may have been a "hypothesis", he argues that the clear "doctrine of the Catholic Church for two millennia has been that wherever the souls of such infants do go, they definitely don't go to heaven".
He argues that this is borne out in the various funeral rites for unbaptised children practised by the Church"


So...

"Congrats, Mr and Mrs X. Your baby is no longer in limbo. We're not entirely certain where he is, it might be hell, it might not. We've kind of lost track, all those suddenly uprooted souls, you know how it is. Just as soon as we can track him down, we'll be sure to let you know..."

Bonkers.

suewilson
Oct. 6th, 2006 05:51 pm (UTC)
God never said there was a limbo.

Limbo is not mentioned in the bible.

For that matter neither is Hell.

And only 144,000 are going to Heaven.

For everyone else there is either non existance or paradise on earth - depending on whether you are willing to live by God rules after Amageddon or not.
cazmonster
Oct. 6th, 2006 07:41 pm (UTC)
I really want Darth Benedict to say something that doesn't make me want to punch him square in the mouth.

I miss me my polish Pope. I miss him bad.
mrmmarc
Oct. 6th, 2006 07:51 pm (UTC)
Papa Ratzi has said some reletivly decent things- much more moderate than I thought he would be.
Mind you- *I* wanted to hit John Paul a few times; and indeed I want to hit Papa Ratzi LESS than John Paul.
Which is saying a lot.
cazmonster
Oct. 6th, 2006 08:02 pm (UTC)
Wow, I need to keep closer tabs on my Catholic News.

What I need is CNN. Catholic News Network.
mrmmarc
Oct. 6th, 2006 08:53 pm (UTC)
Try- http://www.whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/

This is Rocco Palmer- one of THE best spources for the inside line on what is happening in the Roman Catholic Church.

He was going on about the Limbo thing a while ago (his comments yesterday include one of the FINEST sports jokes I have heard in a while).

Papa Ratzi having an "open mic" session at the upcoming Synod of Bishops (wherein Bishops can literally speak up about things which bother them) is a sign of how much more open he is compared to John Paul.

It's one of the best newsblogs out there. It deals SPECIFICALLY with a very specific part of the world (The Vatican), and does it in wonderful detail.
sea_cucumber
Oct. 7th, 2006 08:36 am (UTC)
CNN :)
mr_rakshasa
Oct. 9th, 2006 11:21 am (UTC)
Papa Ratzi. Good one - never thought of that. And I agree with you on that issue.
( 21 comments — Leave a comment )

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